Comments on: An Alternative Way To Assess Math http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/ Elona Hartjes shares the insights, resources and practical classroom strategies that have earned her A Teacher of Distinction Award. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:44:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Elona http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6894 Elona Mon, 22 Jan 2007 01:16:55 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6894 Todd, that would be great. I'd appreciate a copy of the grade contract. Thanks. Todd, that would be great. I’d appreciate a copy of the grade contract. Thanks.

]]> By: Todd http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6891 Todd Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:59:46 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6891 Let me know if you want a copy of the grade contract I have. Something to start with is easier than working from scratch. Let me know if you want a copy of the grade contract I have. Something to start with is easier than working from scratch.

]]> By: Elona http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6878 Elona Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:40:43 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6878 I've met lots of students who benefit from the most consistent, most recent evaluation policy. But then I teach at risk kids. It's not that they can't do the work. For whatever reasons, they choose not to complete assignments and/or submit them. It's my job to support these kids and their teachers so that the kids earn their credits. I like your grade contract idea. I think it could help motivate some of my at risk kids. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep it in mind for next semester. I’ve met lots of students who benefit from the most consistent, most recent evaluation policy. But then I teach at risk kids. It’s not that they can’t do the work. For whatever reasons, they choose not to complete assignments and/or submit them. It’s my job to support these kids and their teachers so that the kids earn their credits. I like your grade contract idea. I think it could help motivate some of my at risk kids. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll keep it in mind for next semester.

]]> By: Todd http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6868 Todd Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:18:02 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6868 For the record, I haven't met that kid. Chances are if he's completely lost, so much so that his grade takes a complete nose dive during 2/3 of the first semester, he's not going to figure out how to read and write in the final 6 weeks. I've had plenty of kids who finally get it at the end of the second semester. Those kids, though, are mostly kids who simply pull their thumbs out and just put forth effort, not that they suddenly understand how to write better. Grade contracts exist for those kids (earn a C or better second semester and I'll change your first semester grade from an F to a D or from a D to a C, that kind of thing). For the record, I haven’t met that kid. Chances are if he’s completely lost, so much so that his grade takes a complete nose dive during 2/3 of the first semester, he’s not going to figure out how to read and write in the final 6 weeks.

I’ve had plenty of kids who finally get it at the end of the second semester. Those kids, though, are mostly kids who simply pull their thumbs out and just put forth effort, not that they suddenly understand how to write better. Grade contracts exist for those kids (earn a C or better second semester and I’ll change your first semester grade from an F to a D or from a D to a C, that kind of thing).

]]> By: Elona http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6867 Elona Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:30:27 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6867 I think the kid who figures it out in the final quarter would benefit from our board's evaluation policy. The student's final mark is to be based on the most recent and the most consistent mark the student earns , not the average of the entire semester. Consequently, the most recent mark and the most consistent mark, the mark in the final quarter, would be the mark the kid gets. I like this way of determining a student's final mark, but a lot of teachers have problems with this method. I think the kid who figures it out in the final quarter would benefit from our board’s evaluation policy. The student’s final mark is to be based on the most recent and the most consistent mark the student earns , not the average of the entire semester. Consequently, the most recent mark and the most consistent mark, the mark in the final quarter, would be the mark the kid gets. I like this way of determining a student’s final mark, but a lot of teachers have problems with this method.

]]> By: Dan Meyer http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6865 Dan Meyer Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:11:13 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6865 Interesting stuff up in here. I think Todd's right. I wish he was wrong. I still wonder, though: what do you do with a kid who doesn't know how to write a bibliography or construct a persuasive essay or diagram a sentence, then messes up a <em>bunch</em> of assessments only to figure it all out in the final quarter? Is there a system in place to accurately reward him? Or, are we of the mind that the kid deserves to fail because he didn't learn the material when his classmates did? Interesting stuff up in here. I think Todd’s right. I wish he was wrong. I still wonder, though: what do you do with a kid who doesn’t know how to write a bibliography or construct a persuasive essay or diagram a sentence, then messes up a bunch of assessments only to figure it all out in the final quarter? Is there a system in place to accurately reward him? Or, are we of the mind that the kid deserves to fail because he didn’t learn the material when his classmates did?

]]> By: Elona http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6863 Elona Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:21:29 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6863 I'd like to agree with you except here we have that dreaded literacy test that kids have to pass in order to get their high school diploma so I have to tell them what they have to be able to do in order to pass the test. I tell them the standards because they are in a rubric. I've spent hours and hours getting kids to the point where they can read and write well enough to pass the test. They don't get it intuitively. They don't learn by osmosis. They need to be "hit over the head" (a most unfortunate turn of phrase) with whatever. I have to tell them exactly what they have to do in order to pass. Notice, I said pass. Yes, it's come to that- teaching to the test. I know. I try not to dwell on that fact. I’d like to agree with you except here we have that dreaded literacy test that kids have to pass in order to get their high school diploma so I have to tell them what they have to be able to do in order to pass the test. I tell them the standards because they are in a rubric. I’ve spent hours and hours getting kids to the point where they can read and write well enough to pass the test.
They don’t get it intuitively. They don’t learn by osmosis. They need to be “hit over the head” (a most unfortunate turn of phrase) with whatever. I have to tell them exactly what they have to do in order to pass. Notice, I said pass. Yes, it’s come to that- teaching to the test. I know. I try not to dwell on that fact.

]]> By: Todd http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6862 Todd Sun, 14 Jan 2007 22:57:48 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6862 Yeah, different tools for different situations. It looks like it would work fine for several other places than mainstream or AP English classes. I could see this not working well with mainstream or AP social science classes, too. There's no systematic approach that's going to lead students to write or read well. There's no formula to follow for that. I'm a fan of turning the standards into "kid language," too. Then again, I'm also of the mind that the kids don't need to see the standards. Those are for teachers to use, not so much students. I see it as a part of the job to interpret those and apply them, not necessarily call them by name throughout the day or year. Yeah, different tools for different situations. It looks like it would work fine for several other places than mainstream or AP English classes. I could see this not working well with mainstream or AP social science classes, too. There’s no systematic approach that’s going to lead students to write or read well. There’s no formula to follow for that.

I’m a fan of turning the standards into “kid language,” too. Then again, I’m also of the mind that the kids don’t need to see the standards. Those are for teachers to use, not so much students. I see it as a part of the job to interpret those and apply them, not necessarily call them by name throughout the day or year.

]]> By: Elona http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6860 Elona Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:40:27 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6860 Your point is well taken. I guess I think that I could use Dan's way of assessing my students because I teach kids who are really weak and do not have the basics down yet. I change the teacher language to kid language, language they can understand . Even though my students are in grades nine , ten and eleven , they often do not write complete sentences, use punctuation properly etc. They don't even speak in complete sentences. They need lots and lots of support. So for these kids, I think Dan's way could be useful because they will never be expected to “trace the etymology of significant terms used in political science and history.” I guess for different jobs, there are different tools. Your point is well taken. I guess I think that I could use Dan’s way of assessing my students because I teach kids who are really weak and do not have the basics down yet. I change the teacher language to kid language, language they can understand . Even though my students are in grades nine , ten and eleven , they often do not write complete sentences, use punctuation properly etc. They don’t even speak in complete sentences. They need lots and lots of support. So for these kids, I think Dan’s way could be useful because they will never be expected to “trace the etymology of significant terms used in political science and history.” I guess for different jobs, there are different tools.

]]> By: Todd http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6857 Todd Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:34:11 +0000 http://www.teachersatrisk.com/2007/01/14/an-alternative-way-to-assess-math/#comment-6857 I like your idea of holding kids to learning something new in class each day. That's an interesting concept and I wonder if there's a way you can have kids do something with that list at the end of the quarter/semester/year. I don't like the idea of checklists for English. I can't think of many concepts that I can go, "Yup! I taught that and now I can move on!" I'm constantly circling back around, but at a higher level and expecting more this time. Also, look through the English standards. Do you think they are so easily demonstrated and checked off? I just don't see it. For example, under fictional, autobiographical, or biographical narratives it states: "Pace the presentation of actions to accommodate temporal, spatial, and dramatic mood changes." How do you check off that you've taught that and kids get it? That skill is demonstrated differently with every single essay written and there are lots of "correct" ways to set that pacing. Any competent writer would never be "wrong," some would just be more sophisticated and eloquent in that pacing. The English standards are full of descriptions that are not discreet and are very subjective in terms of how well a student performs on them. As I wrote on Dan's blog, I just don't think English and math are alike in terms of the way we can use standards. There's no real way for students to show that they can "trace the etymology of significant terms used in political science and history." They can show that they can trace the terms you teach them (which is actually just factual recall, not demonstrating anything more than regurgitation), but that ability isn't one that can be applied to unknown terms. I like your idea of holding kids to learning something new in class each day. That’s an interesting concept and I wonder if there’s a way you can have kids do something with that list at the end of the quarter/semester/year.

I don’t like the idea of checklists for English. I can’t think of many concepts that I can go, “Yup! I taught that and now I can move on!” I’m constantly circling back around, but at a higher level and expecting more this time.

Also, look through the English standards. Do you think they are so easily demonstrated and checked off? I just don’t see it. For example, under fictional, autobiographical, or biographical narratives it states:

“Pace the presentation of actions to accommodate temporal, spatial, and dramatic mood changes.”

How do you check off that you’ve taught that and kids get it? That skill is demonstrated differently with every single essay written and there are lots of “correct” ways to set that pacing. Any competent writer would never be “wrong,” some would just be more sophisticated and eloquent in that pacing.

The English standards are full of descriptions that are not discreet and are very subjective in terms of how well a student performs on them. As I wrote on Dan’s blog, I just don’t think English and math are alike in terms of the way we can use standards. There’s no real way for students to show that they can “trace the etymology of significant terms used in political science and history.” They can show that they can trace the terms you teach them (which is actually just factual recall, not demonstrating anything more than regurgitation), but that ability isn’t one that can be applied to unknown terms.

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